London Thieves

[Dr Tom]

Sorry if this is off-topic, but you're my trusted group and I hope acceptant at my venting. The thread is not about producers.

You've always had to be alert in London, but has it got worse in recent months?

I have two examples from the past couple of days to share.

The first was the Amazon Fresh shop in Shepherd's Bush. This is fully fitted with cameras, but has moved recently from having to scan a card/Amazon account to get in, to scanning out. They've also reduced the staffing. No obvious security and fewer workers.

I was there about 17:30, waiting to pay for reduced goods, and three youths came in. The worker was clearly concerned, but his colleague was keeping a low profile. One of the youths pushed past me. The second was challenged, but said he wasn't stealing, then said something like "Don't worry about it". The worker said the police won't come, "Back in Africa, they'd be beaten up". The culprits had puffer jackets, based on where they were positioned in the store. Those jackets were filled with energy drinks and medical products.

I also walked down Oxford Street around 22:30. Suddenly, a massive yell (not English) and someone tearing down the street for about 10 seconds. Others filming. I presume a phone theft. The thief would have been long out of range before the victim realised their phone was being snatched.

I remember seeing theft in Greggs before, being circled before (in Peckham - but I put my phone away), being threatened by people "asking" directions etc, but has it got worse? I was in NYC recently, and, although I stayed in respectable areas, I didn't feel unsafe. Has it got worse? I don't feel like I'm a target and I'm alert, but this must be discouraging to visitors. I saw someone else reacting to a phone theft on the tube recently (they opened the doors - I hope he caught the culprit).

I'm not intending this as a political discussion. I appreciate that it is not easy to solve and many cities have a similar problem. But I hope that everyone reading this is alert.

[d'James]

There was a report about it on the news today.

[sph]

I feel it is worse now than a few years ago, yes. Maybe that's just because I'm witnessing incidents like those mentioned here more and more often.

I've always (touch wood) been lucky that nothing has happened to me directly, but even just tonight on the tube home, I saw what was basically a citizens' arrest of a young man who tried to steal someone's phone on the train.

I'm so careful in public. Would never have my phone out in my hand on the street. If I do take it out to check something, I look around to see who's nearby.

And I notice more aggressive behaviour on the tube too. Fights, begging which turns into aggressive harassment. It feels so much less safe.

[kathryn]

Impossible to tell from individual experiences if it is worse or not.
You need objective statistics to get the overview.

I was pickpocketed way back in 2008, and had an attempted pickpocketing a few years later (he had his hand in my bag but I had put my purse in an inside zip pocket, so was able to catch him trying to undo the zip - he hurriedly left the store but it was a CCTV blackspot in the shop). I haven’t had any problems for years - but that is probably as much luck as judgement.

[sph]

Jul 25, 2024 11:59:39 GMT kathryn said:

Impossible to tell from individual experiences if it is worse or not.
You need objective statistics to get the overview.

I was pickpocketed way back in 2008, and had an attempted pickpocketing a few years later (he had his hand in my bag but I had put my purse in an inside zip pocket, so was able to catch him trying to undo the zip - he hurriedly left the store but it was a CCTV blackspot in the shop). I haven’t had any problems for years - but that is probably as much luck as judgement.

News articles released yesterday have reported that the Office for National Statistics has observed a new 20-year high for shoplifting incidents.

[happysooz2]

Phone jacking is utterly terrible in London. I live in Dalston
and have had my phone jacked twice, once outside my house. I probably see it happen twice a week round here. I saw someone outside Boots on Great Portland St on Monday morning. 8am. This was the first time I’d seen it with my own eyes in central London, I have seen videos on insta. The thieves in Hackney are pretty muchalways dressed in black, on bikes, scarves over mouths and they will generally come up behind you (riding on the pavement) or snatch while you are waiting to cross the road or as you are crossing the road. The person in central London however was basically disguised like a Deliveroo driver, with a blue jacket on, so that’s something else to be hyper-aware of.

The police tell me that in Hackney, it’s all gang related and the ‘prove their worth’ to the gang by the number of phones they steal and then they can ‘level up’ to something else. It’s really depressing. Hackney’s not that far from Fitzrovia so I suspect it’s still gangs. The police were trialling new scorpion bikes to try and catch them.

I wear my phone on a lanyard now. I would never walk around with my phone in my hand.

There does also seem to be a lot more theft from shops. Boots seems to be a hotspot. I suspect this is not gang related though.

Always report it to the police. You’d be amazed, but I once got my phone back and they found mine (wrapped in tin foil, for bizarre reasons) with a load of others. They even found a print on the phone but there was no eventual arrest AFAIK.

[joem]

I am afraid that the answers required to solve this problem are not touchy-feely, cuddly. There is a tidal wave of unchallenged crime, which will only grow because it is unchallenged, and there is little or nothing our sensitive society can do to fight this.

[marob]

I remember being on a trip to London a few years back and seeing a report on the news about people on bikes snatching phones out of people’s hands. Later that same day I was walking up the Charing Cross Road behind a woman who was chattering away on her mobile… until suddenly she wasn’t. Before anyone even realised what had happened they were gone.

I’m always a bit wary when I’m out and about, especially as a solo traveler, but that made me a bit paranoid about taking my phone out in public. I don’t use it on the street if I can help it and if I do then I’ll try and find a spot like a doorway or something where it’s not so easy to whiz past on a bike.

With the Underground I can’t help noticing how rare it is to see any staff now once you leave the ticket hall. Wasn’t that way when I started going to London about 10 years ago. That’s only going to embolden people, whether they be thieves, beggars, or perv’s. Saw something about someone making videos on a train for their Only Fans. They were caught but imagine there are plenty of others who haven’t been. (As if the trains aren’t dirty enough🤢)

I think there is a major issue in that there’s a very real lack of consequences for bad behaviour, from school age on up. Seems like all the focus is on sticking cameras everywhere to try to prosecute later via CCTV, rather than trying to discourage crime from happening in the first place.

If it was up to me there’d be zero tolerance for gangs. I think they should use the same laws they use on terrorist groups. See how cool they think they are when every single one of them is under house arrest.

[blamerobots]

Jul 25, 2024 20:47:20 GMT marob said:

With the Underground I can’t help noticing how rare it is to see any staff now once you leave the ticket hall.

I've stopped going around the Central Line stations and instead make the long walk back to TCR and the Elizabeth line after a show because they just don't staff anyone there. I remember feeling very unsafe around a group of rowdy people and got off at a station and to get the next train and it crossed my mind that there's literally no staff at the platform, no staff on hand to help those who are sick or injured, instead they're all on the other side of the ticket barriers. Those stations are rough, and it just seems they're completely neglected.

For phone snatching... I think it's so popular because it is so easy to do physically. It's over in a matter of seconds. The real thing is disabling the phone so it can't be tracked by police. I'm built pretty big and stand at about 6ft but someone could still easily snatch my phone out my hand as someone that is 4'5".

I was selected to do a survey recently for the Office of National Statistics on crime in my area, since I live near enough to London to count as being on the outskirts to them. A lot of the questions seemed biased heavily towards petty crime and youth crime, a lot of questions about "have you been the victim of harrassment in the street" as such, so this rise in crime is definitely being documented.

Unfortunately CCTV seems to be a big thing but the problem is that it doesn't stop the crime itself from occuring, it just covers evidence at prosecution which could just never happen. What will stop the crime happening is a debate too long for me to be bothered to get into

[Phantom of London]

No crime gets solved with the police sitting in their canteens.

[kate8]

Jul 25, 2024 21:44:20 GMT Phantom of London said:

No crime gets solved with the police sitting in their canteens.

Never mind the funding and personnel cuts eh?

[Jan]

I know someone who works in W.H.Smiths and they say shoplifting happens every day on an industrial scale even in a shop like that, they see it happening but are not allowed to do anything about it. You know those plastic cases of scratch cards they have at the tills ? One day a guy came in and walked up and opened each one - he had the key - and walked out with the whole lot. Shoplifting has effectively been decriminalised and the police generally won't even attend - maybe the Police and Crime Commissioner for London should actually do something about it now that his usual excuse of blaming the government won't work.

[Jan]

Jul 26, 2024 6:16:17 GMT kate8 said:

Jul 25, 2024 21:44:20 GMT Phantom of London said:

No crime gets solved with the police sitting in their canteens.

Never mind the funding and personnel cuts eh?

What funding cuts ? The last year there was any cut in funding was 1917-1918, in every year since then there has been an increase. And, incidentally, that budget is set directly by Sadiq Khan so that last cut was due to him. 

[kathryn]

Jul 25, 2024 19:15:14 GMT joem said:

I am afraid that the answers required to solve this problem are not touchy-feely, cuddly. There is a tidal wave of unchallenged crime, which will only grow because it is unchallenged, and there is little or nothing our sensitive society can do to fight this.

It’s not the sensitivity of our society that is the problem, it’s the fact that the criminal justice system is chronically underfunded, making it impossible to get cases through the courts. So petty crimes are deprioritised by a system that is struggling to cope with prosecuting serious crime and takes 2 years to get those cases to court.

[SilverFox]

Jul 26, 2024 8:18:17 GMT Jan said:

What funding cuts ? The last year there was any cut in funding was 1917-1918, in every year since then there has been an increase. And, incidentally, that budget is set directly by Sadiq Khan so that last cut was due to him. 

Not sure that I follow this - there have not been any cuts since 1918, but Khan is responsible for that last cut?

[nancycunard]

Jul 25, 2024 21:28:57 GMT blamerobots said:

Jul 25, 2024 20:47:20 GMT marob said:

With the Underground I can’t help noticing how rare it is to see any staff now once you leave the ticket hall.

I've stopped going around the Central Line stations and instead make the long walk back to TCR and the Elizabeth line after a show because they just don't staff anyone there. I remember feeling very unsafe around a group of rowdy people and got off at a station and to get the next train and it crossed my mind that there's literally no staff at the platform, no staff on hand to help those who are sick or injured, instead they're all on the other side of the ticket barriers. Those stations are rough, and it just seems they're completely neglected.

For phone snatching... I think it's so popular because it is so easy to do physically. It's over in a matter of seconds. The real thing is disabling the phone so it can't be tracked by police. I'm built pretty big and stand at about 6ft but someone could still easily snatch my phone out my hand as someone that is 4'5".

I was selected to do a survey recently for the Office of National Statistics on crime in my area, since I live near enough to London to count as being on the outskirts to them. A lot of the questions seemed biased heavily towards petty crime and youth crime, a lot of questions about "have you been the victim of harrassment in the street" as such, so this rise in crime is definitely being documented.

Unfortunately CCTV seems to be a big thing but the problem is that it doesn't stop the crime itself from occuring, it just covers evidence at prosecution which could just never happen. What will stop the crime happening is a debate too long for me to be bothered to get into

I generally agree with your first point — I was quite badly sexually harassed on my way to work (broad daylight and no one did anything) a couple of months ago on the tube. I only reported it to the British Transport Police after my colleagues encouraged me to, but I have to say I was genuinely astounded at how good and responsive they were, and how seriously it was taken. It’s significantly increased how safe I feel on public transport because it was dealt with so strongly, even though the lack of staff is probably emboldening these people in the first place.

[Phantom of London]

Jul 26, 2024 6:16:17 GMT kate8 said:

Jul 25, 2024 21:44:20 GMT Phantom of London said:

No crime gets solved with the police sitting in their canteens.

Never mind the funding and personnel cuts eh?

And all that with the malaise of ‘a can’t be bothered attitude.’ 

The police are woefully let down by the courts and the courts are let down by the prison service.’ In fact there is no deterrent, if you are unlucky enough to get sentenced to a custodial sentence, then it seems an easy life with your won mobile phones and drugs. It isn’t exactly a punishment, but a mere inconvenience.

[Jan]

Jul 26, 2024 9:24:57 GMT SilverFox said:

Jul 26, 2024 8:18:17 GMT Jan said:

What funding cuts ? The last year there was any cut in funding was 1917-1918, in every year since then there has been an increase. And, incidentally, that budget is set directly by Sadiq Khan so that last cut was due to him. 

Not sure that I follow this - there have not been any cuts since 1918, but Khan is responsible for that last cut?

Sorry. I meant 2017-2018. But you knew that of course. But fair play for your deflection anyway - well done. 

It is a quite prevalent myth that the Tories cut funding for everything including the NHS and, here, the Met when the opposite is the truth. I suppose it is similar to the myths that Starmer will reduce my energy bills by £300 and Reeves won't put up my taxes. Let's see shall we ? 

[Phantom of London]

Did you get cut tax under the last 14 years?

[kate8]

Jul 26, 2024 17:43:03 GMT Jan said:

Jul 26, 2024 9:24:57 GMT SilverFox said:

Not sure that I follow this - there have not been any cuts since 1918, but Khan is responsible for that last cut?

Sorry. I meant 2017-2018. But you knew that of course. But fair play for your deflection anyway - well done. 

It is a quite prevalent myth that the Tories cut funding for everything including the NHS and, here, the Met when the opposite is the truth. I suppose it is similar to the myths that Starmer will reduce my energy bills by £300 and Reeves won't put up my taxes. Let's see shall we ? 

The budget was cut quite considerably in 4 of the 5 years up to 2018, all but one under a Tory mayor. It’s increased again since then, but nowhere near enough to keep pace with inflation or the rapidly increasing population. The Mayor/GLA only pays about a quarter of the Met budget, so doesn’t have much room for increase if the government of the day is unwilling to increase its share.

[kate8]

I agree with you Jan that shoplifting needs serious action. I have heard similar stories to yours from a friend who works in Boots. I saw a shoplifter in a supermarket try to hit a security guard over the head with a bottle of whiskey the other day.

But to go back to street crime, I don’t feel unsafe, but I feel like you need your wits about you. I see so many people who don’t look aware of people around them, not holding onto their phones tightly, bags open, wallets in back pockets etc. A colleague had her wallet stolen but it was in the outside pocket of her bag, so easy to unzip without her knowing. I think it’s always been necessary to be vigilant about those things, so not sure it’s increased.

[interval99]

Yes definitely increased, last visit to London in May it was noticeable the open warnings about the danger of thieves which have not heard and seen so openly.

In the Westfield shopping centre near the ABBA arena they were announcing over the tannoy every ten minutes for people to put phones away as soon as possible and not to use if they didn't need to, At London Bridge station saw more posters warning of gadgets grabbers and to keep items hidden than promotional adverts.
While you can try to be alert and watchful it does make you think twice when looking at a return visit. I need to get out the habit of phone out and take picture of theatre front of house which do automatically when getting to a show.
It's always been a place to be wary of and most places around the country now have similar risks but the fact that it is now so brazen and open crime right in the heart of London is worrying .

[orchidman]

The good news is that Labour have just appointed James Timpson to release criminals so things will definitely get worse before they can get better.

[Dr Tom]

Putting the politics aside, I was waiting at Kings Cross yesterday with a family member for rather a long time due to train delays and cancellations. It was packed. We sat outside briefly and within 10 minutes had two separate visits from community police warning us to put phones away and get a tight grip on bags.

That didn’t stop my family member wanting to go right back outside to make a phone call, but they got the idea eventually. Someone else patted my back pocket at some point as well in the busy inside scrum, but I don’t keep my wallet there.

[jojo]

I do think that some of what we are seeing is the predictable effects of years of cuts to youth services, and growing inequality. More and more people are struggling to pay the rent and feed themselves, and it's inevitable that some of those people will turn to petty crime, or their teenage kids will.

Self-service shops are a new thing, and it seems the owners just accept a certain level of thefts and bake that into their business model. Similarly, it being routine for people to carry around phones that are valuable enough to be worth stealing is a fairly new thing, and having phones that carry the kind of information that can let fraudsters have access to your savings is even more recent. The risk-benefit balance has shifted in the criminal's direction before we even consider the effectiveness or otherwise of the police.

We can argue about whether or not the police have adequate resources, but the less talked about issue is that of the courts. They are running at a massive back-log because the last government shut so many of them. Dates are set long into the future, but the odds are they will be postponed, or eventually cancelled or become simply pointless because witnesses struggle to give evidence of sufficient quality five years later.