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Post by moviebuffff1n on Sept 17, 2024 20:05:43 GMT
A bit more information, including quote from Salo: www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/sep/17/manchester-theatre-cancels-shows-entire-run-over-gaza-and-trans-rights-referencesFrom this it sounds like they were clear from the get go what they would be including in the show. In this respect it sounds like members of the audience (or those hearing about the production from others; we've seen this happen in other theatres since the latest Israel/Gaza conflict began) decided to complain/get the production censored. Hats off to the cast/creatives for sticking by their creation. And to Equity for making sure they got paid. Seems the theatre overreacted massively. People can view things and not agree with some of the political messages of it! Think it’s a shambles on the theatres behalf for cancelling a play which people have worked hard on over some graffiti on a car and some song lyrics. Shame on them. Hopefully the production can be picked up by another theatre so all the hard work isn’t for nothing. |
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Post by oxfordsimon on Sept 17, 2024 20:54:43 GMT
The theatre has not commented on specifics.
So please can people stop assuming that what has been reported thus far represents what actually created this situation.
We have zero evidence that proves that cancellation was just based on issues with lyrics and an element of the set decoration.
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Post by nash16 on Sept 17, 2024 21:13:55 GMT
The theatre has not commented on specifics. So please can people stop assuming that what has been reported thus far represents what actually created this situation. We have zero evidence that proves that cancellation was just based on issues with lyrics and an element of the set decoration. If you read that articles, it’s pretty clear that they were the cause of the fear from the theatre management about the production. It’s like they tried to blame many things over the week, including throwing the technical side of things under the bus at one point before the truth came out. |
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Post by oxfordsimon on Sept 17, 2024 21:26:11 GMT
Nothing is clear until there is a definitive statement
Trying to draw conclusions based on reading between the lines doesn't get us any closer to the truth.
Theatres don't cancel shows lightly. It costs them too much.
There is more to this than we yet know.
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Post by nash16 on Sept 17, 2024 21:38:04 GMT
Nothing is clear until there is a definitive statement Trying to draw conclusions based on reading between the lines doesn't get us any closer to the truth. Theatres don't cancel shows lightly. It costs them too much. There is more to this than we yet know. But it’s not “trying”. The evidence has been presented. Having said that, hurry up RX, and tell us what we already know. |
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Post by d'James on Sept 17, 2024 21:45:01 GMT
Nothing is clear until there is a definitive statement Trying to draw conclusions based on reading between the lines doesn't get us any closer to the truth. Theatres don't cancel shows lightly. It costs them too much. There is more to this than we yet know. But it’s not “trying”. The evidence has been presented. Having said that, hurry up RX, and tell us what we already know. While what we’ve heard sounds pretty damning, I don’t think it can be classed as evidence. |
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Post by nash16 on Sept 17, 2024 21:48:49 GMT
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Post by oxfordsimon on Sept 17, 2024 22:28:13 GMT
Nameless comments aren't evidence
There is very little real info on the record from named sources
So taking anything definitive from these newspaper reports is just wrong.
What we know for certain is that performances were cancelled and now the full run has been pulled. We also know that all involved in the production have been fully paid.
The rest is spin and speculation
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Post by d'James on Sept 17, 2024 22:29:13 GMT
I can read thank you, but it’s a lot of quotes; I don’t see any ‘evidence.’ |
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Post by crabtree on Sept 17, 2024 22:36:11 GMT
but did anyone on here actually see one of the few previews.....
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Sept 18, 2024 9:12:16 GMT
There was a song which included lyrics about free Palestine in which audiences would be asked to participate?
Seriously? The mind boggles at what that was about if true.
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Post by ceebee on Sept 18, 2024 9:56:03 GMT
It all sounds terribly self-indulgent on the part of the director and cast. If true, the theatre absolutely made the right decision to bin it off.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Sept 18, 2024 10:28:09 GMT
I hadn't heard of the director Stef O'Driscoll, so I watched an interview with her done at the Royal Court. She had quite good reviews for a show she directed there, but this was one thing she said that I thought was pertinent (from youtube transcript): "Make your own rules. Some organisations and some buildings or some places might have a way that they think they want to do things in they'll have schemes for like merging theatre-makers to come in—I assist people and stuff like that—but like I don't think I listen to any of that and just kind of went straight to the people that are kind of wanting to talk to and just I did it. I didn't have that handbook so it's kind of like rather than fearing and trying to fit into like systems and how they do it like kind of do it the way that you want to do it." Let’s remind ourselves of the director’s own words above. “ Make your own rules” You can do that when you’re funding your own show and putting it on in your own space. “ some places might have a way that they think they want to do things” Yes, which you have to respect if you can’t persuade them to bend. “ I don't think I listen to any of that” You should because look what happens when you don’t listen. “ I didn't have that handbook” Get the handbook, read the handbook. “ kind of do it the way that you want to do it." Only with agreement from the people who are paying you. It would be nice to think she’ll take this as a learning experience for future projects but I somehow doubt it. Any mainstream theatre is surely going to have to think twice before hiring her though. |
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Post by zahidf on Sept 18, 2024 10:31:46 GMT
I hadn't heard of the director Stef O'Driscoll, so I watched an interview with her done at the Royal Court. She had quite good reviews for a show she directed there, but this was one thing she said that I thought was pertinent (from youtube transcript): "Make your own rules. Some organisations and some buildings or some places might have a way that they think they want to do things in they'll have schemes for like merging theatre-makers to come in—I assist people and stuff like that—but like I don't think I listen to any of that and just kind of went straight to the people that are kind of wanting to talk to and just I did it. I didn't have that handbook so it's kind of like rather than fearing and trying to fit into like systems and how they do it like kind of do it the way that you want to do it." Let’s remind ourselves of the director’s own words above. “ Make your own rules” You can do that when you’re funding your own show and putting it on in your own space. “ some places might have a way that they think they want to do things” Yes, which you have to respect if you can’t persuade them to bend. “ I don't think I listen to any of that” You should because look what happens when you don’t listen. “ I didn't have that handbook” Get the handbook, read the handbook. “ kind of do it the way that you want to do it." Only with agreement from the people who are paying you. It would be nice to think she’ll take this as a learning experience for future projects but I somehow doubt it. Any mainstream theatre is surely going to have to think twice before hiring her though. Alternatively, the theatre knew about how she does things as that interview was some time ago, and i assume they discussed it before anything was started on the show It is similar to that Globe/Emma Rice fiasco: they weren't a right fit, and things didn't work out. Id probably say the theatre cancelling the show over a few minor things like a rap song and some grafitti is an over-reaction, but im guessing they ll have to give an explanation for wasting thousands at some point. |
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Post by stevej678 on Sept 18, 2024 10:37:21 GMT
Let’s remind ourselves of the director’s own words above. “ Make your own rules” You can do that when you’re funding your own show and putting it on in your own space. “ some places might have a way that they think they want to do things” Yes, which you have to respect if you can’t persuade them to bend. “ I don't think I listen to any of that” You should because look what happens when you don’t listen. “ I didn't have that handbook” Get the handbook, read the handbook. “ kind of do it the way that you want to do it." Only with agreement from the people who are paying you. It would be nice to think she’ll take this as a learning experience for future projects but I somehow doubt it. Any mainstream theatre is surely going to have to think twice before hiring her though. Alternatively, the theatre knew about how she does things as that interview was some time ago, and i assume they discussed it before anything was started on the show It is similar to that Globe/Emma Rice fiasco: they weren't a right fit, and things didn't work out. Id probably say the theatre cancelling the show over a few minor things like a rap song and some grafitti is an over-reaction, but im guessing they ll have to give an explanation for wasting thousands at some point. I'm not sure there's any equivalence between Emma Rice producing shows at the Globe in her signature style and a director seemingly trying to embed Free Palestine messaging and associated audience participation into an adaptation of A Midsummer Night's Dream at the Royal Exchange. |
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Post by oxfordsimon on Sept 18, 2024 10:43:20 GMT
We do not know with any degree of certainty that the cancellation was actually down to the lyrics and/or the graffiti.
That idea is just based on nameless, unattributed comments.
Working on the assumption that the lyrics were part of some singalong concept, I think it is legitimate to raise questions about the idea of seeking to force an audience into joining in with political statements to which they may not subscribe or in certain cases actually reject.
We also don't know when the lyrics/series decoration ideas were incorporated into the performance. Theatres do not sit in on every rehearsal and so it is quite possible that the full detail of the production did not become clear until a very late stage.
Theatres do not cancel productions lightly. The costs are too high for this to be common.
This is clearly a very complex situation. Far more involved than anything that has been ascertained for certain.
Everyone has been paid. Ticket holders will have been refunded.
It is a sad situation and not one anyone would like to see repeated.
But relationships in theatre do breakdown. This probably should have been handled better. However theatres do have rights just as creative do.
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Post by foxa on Sept 18, 2024 11:17:25 GMT
I wondered if the audience participation was the issue - while expressing a point of view is free speech, forcing others to is compelled speech. It made me think of the Soho Theatre comedian who, a few months ago, berated members of the audience for not being enthusiastic enough about the Palestinian Flag. www.theguardian.com/news/2024/feb/12/soho-theatre-apologises-after-comedian-abused-jewish-audience-memberBut, of course, it could be something entirely different and the theatre has suggested there were a combination of reasons (which given the disastrous financial and reputational hit I can't think they would have done lightly.) |
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Post by Dave B on Sept 18, 2024 11:22:06 GMT
No-one is 'forced' to partake in an audience like this. I didn't at Strange Loop, I didn't at The Merchant of Venice 1936 and I didn't at A Face In The Crowd last week. I did at The Gods, The Gods, The Gods (also last week) because I was having fun and I wanted to.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Sept 18, 2024 11:32:07 GMT
It’s not quite the same as not partaking in “he’s behind you” at the panto though is it? This is a highly emotive political matter. If you don’t want to partake or actually disagree, what do you do? Just sit there feeling awkward? If you’re actually Jewish and have a room full of potentially hostile people singing free Palestine how are you supposed to feel?
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Post by richey on Sept 18, 2024 11:33:04 GMT
No-one is 'forced' to partake in an audience like this. I didn't at Strange Loop, I didn't at The Merchant of Venice 1936 and I didn't at A Face In The Crowd last week. I did at The Gods, The Gods, The Gods (also last week) because I was having fun and I wanted to. Maybe not forced, but a lot of people (myself included) feel awkward with any form of audience participation, political or not. |
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Sept 18, 2024 11:39:30 GMT
Also, there was absolutely nothing, zilch, nada in the marketing to suggest there was going to be this political element. It was promoted as being based on the Manchester rave scene (see first post in this thread). Given some of the things that trigger warnings are given for these days you’d think someone might have considered Middle Eastern politics to be mentioned. But maybe it wasn’t because the content had been “sneaked in” by the creatives.
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Post by BurlyBeaR on Sept 18, 2024 11:41:46 GMT
No-one is 'forced' to partake in an audience like this. I didn't at Strange Loop, I didn't at The Merchant of Venice 1936 and I didn't at A Face In The Crowd last week. I did at The Gods, The Gods, The Gods (also last week) because I was having fun and I wanted to. Maybe not forced, but a lot of people (myself included) feel awkward with any form of audience participation, political or not. I remember taking my seat at Pie Shop Sweeney Todd and realising who was going to be the victim for the “elixir” being rubbed into his head. And I was right 😐 |
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Post by ceebee on Sept 18, 2024 11:52:22 GMT
It’s not quite the same as not partaking in “he’s behind you” at the panto though is it? This is a highly emotive political matter. If you don’t want to partake or actually disagree, what do you do? Just sit there feeling awkward? If you’re actually Jewish and have a room full of potentially hostile people singing free Palestine how are you supposed to feel? Exactly this. I was the victim of an online "pile on" when I suggested to a coffee shop owner that his virtue signalling over Gaza by dropping Coca Cola products was not customer focused and that he shouldn't impose his own personal views on to his customers. People told me I was wrong (and worse), yet my point was that if you are paying for a product or service, you are not paying for the owner's ideology to be imposed on you at the same time. I asked the owner of the coffee shop how he would feel if a Jewish family pulled up at his shop for a drink and a slice of cake, only to find they were not welcome (or made to feel unwelcome) because of all the flags, propaganda etc. He said that he didn't care. What a world we live in. |
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Post by d'James on Sept 18, 2024 12:09:49 GMT
No-one is 'forced' to partake in an audience like this. I didn't at Strange Loop, I didn't at The Merchant of Venice 1936 and I didn't at A Face In The Crowd last week. I did at The Gods, The Gods, The Gods (also last week) because I was having fun and I wanted to. What kind of audience participation do those involve? These are such volatile current political topics that it could be dangerous for people in the audience. Some people are so entrenched in their views that I can imagine them reprimanding others for joining in OR not. |
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Post by claireyfairy1 on Sept 18, 2024 12:14:06 GMT
I wondered if the audience participation was the issue - while expressing a point of view is free speech, forcing others to is compelled speech. It made me think of the Soho Theatre comedian who, a few months ago, berated members of the audience for not being enthusiastic enough about the Palestinian Flag. www.theguardian.com/news/2024/feb/12/soho-theatre-apologises-after-comedian-abused-jewish-audience-memberBut, of course, it could be something entirely different and the theatre has suggested there were a combination of reasons (which given the disastrous financial and reputational hit I can't think they would have done lightly.) This was one person in the audience who then did all the media rounds after the event and was a former Israeli intelligence officer. I am not disputing what happened at that event because I was not there, but the comedian said it felt set-up in a podcast interview, and we then saw the same thing happen with Reginald D. Hunter more recently. And the person offended at RDH's show had previously been tweeting about the incident with Paul Currie. Both comedians had their subsequent shows cancelled. So I think we need to be very specific about how we talk about these incidents as they don't involve multiple audience members complaining. And also, brands and businesses have a right to have values and ethics. In fact, most people prefer them to have values and ethics when it comes to human rights (whether that's trans rights, or the rights of victims of massacres, etc), and given the trends we're seeing (actual hard marketing data) it actually benefits brands and businesses to do so. |
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