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Post by drmaplewood on Aug 26, 2022 11:23:06 GMT
Went to the first preview of I, Joan last night. Largely full house and a noticeably younger audience. Thought it was terrific, some tightening needed as to be expected in a first performance (just under 3 hours currently, that can definitely be trimmed) and a really interesting evening. There is some mild breaking of the fourth wall, as a warning if you are allergic to that sort thing.
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Post by crowblack on Aug 26, 2022 12:34:02 GMT
I'm not surprised by the younger audience - part of the Globe's marketing for this was stressing cheap tickets, ie, teenagers, this is pocket-money pricing.
My issue with this piece being staged now is that it is not happening in a vacuum. It is happening against a background when teenage girls now far outnumber boys going to gender clinics, including for mastectomies and more - the graph for girls looks like an olympic ski jump. This is a generation of girls and boys growing up 'learning' much of their sex and relationship expectations from increasingly violent and misogynistic porn, accessible to youngsters through the internet in a volume and with an ease that is historically unprecedented.
Women, they are told through this, are expected to be submissive, to expect being spat on, slapped, strangled as 'normal'. 'Lesbian' is now considered a porn category for the entertainment of males rather than a positive sexuality. It is no wonder many in this generation of girls want to identify out of that and, unlike our generation (I'm Gen X), they don't have a strong pop culture or youth venues where they can go and be goths, punks, emos, Smiths fans, indie kids or all the other ways teenage girls used to avoid a sexualising 'male gaze' without coming across as 'uncool'.
And there was also anorexia and bulimia, another way of dealing with teenage body anxiety, reinforced by 'pro-ana' websites and 'heroin chic' fashion shoots. Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria and its associated online imagery of binders and mastectomy scars feels very much the anorexia and pro-ana of today. That poster, the young woman binding her breasts, and this, in their promo words 'rediscovery' of Joan, feels like it's feeding into this trend, and I can't forgive them for that.
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Post by c4ndyc4ne on Aug 26, 2022 12:44:34 GMT
Orrrrr.... maybe don't patronise a younger generation! This production is a reflection of the transformation of gender roles and the fluidity that now exists. This can provide individuals with greater comfort and security in themselves. I think you'd learn a lot from this fantastic article - www.pinknews.co.uk/2022/08/18/trans-youth-study-detransition/ - 97.5 per cent of children who come out as trans continue to identify as trans or non-binary after five years. Conflating the transformation of gender roles and pornography feels unnecessary. Change is scary - don't worry - you'll get there! |
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Post by couldileaveyou on Aug 26, 2022 12:49:44 GMT
Orrrrr.... maybe don't patronise a younger generation! This production is a reflection of the transformation of gender roles and the fluidity that now exists. This can provide individuals with greater comfort and security in themselves. I think you'd learn a lot from this fantastic article - www.pinknews.co.uk/2022/08/18/trans-youth-study-detransition/ - 97.5 per cent of children who come out as trans continue to identify as trans or non-binary after five years. Conflating the transformation of gender roles and pornography feels unnecessary. Change is scary - don't worry - you'll get there! I think it's a legitimate concern, once I spent 6 months in a secret lair under the Royal Opera House after having watched The Phantom of the Opera |
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Post by crowblack on Aug 26, 2022 12:55:40 GMT
Please try to get your info from more outlets than Pink News (or The Guardian, which these days feels like its brother paper). Those of us who grew up in the Bowie, Glam Rock, New Romantic and all the rest of it era think what is going on now regarding the conception of gender roles, 'fluidity' and sex is far more conservative than our era where a girl who liked cars and dinosaurs or a boy who liked dolls and dancing weren't told they were in the 'wrong body' and needed medically 'fixing'.
The Tavistock is closing, and not for the reasons claimed in Pink News. Two of the three people I know who surgically transitioned regretted it. Right now I know several families including a relative where the teenagers are caught up in this trend. It's not something to be flippant about. If someone chooses to commit to this course of surgery and life when they're a mature adult then so be it, but we are talking teenagers here, a show about a teenage girl and aimed at teenagers.
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Post by c4ndyc4ne on Aug 26, 2022 13:25:41 GMT
Please try to get your info from more outlets than Pink News (or The Guardian, which these days feels like its brother paper). Those of us who grew up in the Bowie, Glam Rock, New Romantic and all the rest of it era think what is going on now regarding the conception of gender roles, 'fluidity' and sex is far more conservative than our era where a girl who liked cars and dinosaurs or a boy who liked dolls and dancing weren't told they were in the 'wrong body' and needed medically 'fixing'. The Tavistock is closing, and not for the reasons claimed in Pink News. Two of the three people I know who surgically transitioned regretted it. Right now I know several families including a relative where the teenagers are caught up in this trend. It's not something to be flippant about. If someone chooses to commit to this course of surgery and life when they're a mature adult then so be it, but we are talking teenagers here, a show about a teenage girl and aimed at teenagers. Oh gosh - many apologies - here's my info from the National Library of Medicine. pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35918512/ |
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3,040 posts
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Post by crowblack on Aug 26, 2022 13:42:20 GMT
Not our nation's, but the dodgy surgery-monetising one across the Atlantic ocean. This is going to be their next tobacco, asbestos and lobotomy lawsuit scandal.
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Post by Jan on Aug 26, 2022 14:13:02 GMT
Not our nation's, but the dodgy surgery-monetising one across the Atlantic ocean. This is going to be their next tobacco, asbestos and lobotomy lawsuit scandal. The NHS (ie. the taxpayer) will likely have to pay out tens or hundreds of millions in compensation for medical negligence claims over what went on at the Tavistock - over 1000 cases potentially. The official reasons already given for closing the Tavistock will make the cases very hard to defend. A moment of silent reflection from the cheerleaders for transition medical therapy would be welcome. |
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Post by cavocado on Aug 26, 2022 15:35:13 GMT
I'm gender critical, but I am interested in this play and what it has to say. What I find patronising and offensive, and has stopped me booking so far, is the way that a lot of the publicity around it seems aimed at 'correcting' those of us who don't subscribe to gender ideology. Michelle Terry seems unable to acknowledge that this is a controversial and complex political issue about which many people have genuine concerns that aren't born out of bigotry or stupidity. It would be braver and more honest to give space for constructive debates around the issues raised, especially when the 'no debate' stance is so socially divisive. I'd love to see several theatres commissioning new plays that look at this issue from various perspectives.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2022 15:46:54 GMT
I'd love to see several theatres commissioning new plays that look at this issue from various perspectives. Agreed, but I doubt that any play taking a stance that doesn’t wholly endorse the ideology would ever get put on. Certainly the writer would probably never work again! |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2022 15:57:15 GMT
Please try to get your info from more outlets than Pink News (or The Guardian, which these days feels like its brother paper). Those of us who grew up in the Bowie, Glam Rock, New Romantic and all the rest of it era think what is going on now regarding the conception of gender roles, 'fluidity' and sex is far more conservative than our era where a girl who liked cars and dinosaurs or a boy who liked dolls and dancing weren't told they were in the 'wrong body' and needed medically 'fixing'. The Tavistock is closing, and not for the reasons claimed in Pink News. Two of the three people I know who surgically transitioned regretted it. Right now I know several families including a relative where the teenagers are caught up in this trend. It's not something to be flippant about. If someone chooses to commit to this course of surgery and life when they're a mature adult then so be it, but we are talking teenagers here, a show about a teenage girl and aimed at teenagers. Oh gosh - many apologies - here's my info from the National Library of Medicine. pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35918512/Sorry c4ndyc4ne, I’m not sure Jack Turban is much of a step up from Pink News in the grand scheme of things! If you’re interested in understanding more about why GC people are concerned about radical trans ideology, which the increasingly ridiculous Globe seems to have rubber stamped, you could try this summing up of the interim Cass review: sex-matters.org/posts/updates/the-cass-reviews-interim-report-is-out/ Or download the report itself: cass.independent-review.uk/publications/interim-report/ |
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Post by cavocado on Aug 26, 2022 16:35:44 GMT
I'd love to see several theatres commissioning new plays that look at this issue from various perspectives. Agreed, but I doubt that any play taking a stance that doesn’t wholly endorse the ideology would ever get put on. Certainly the writer would probably never work again! Which is quite chilling to anyone who believes in theatres being champions of free speech. Maybe the Royal Court should have done this instead of the Dave Davidson thing - more obvious need for writer anonymity. I agree it's unlikely to happen though, especially having heard Vicky Featherstone apologise for her and Jude Kelly both being 'assigned female at birth' during a discussion after Maryland at the Queen Elizabeth Hall. A woman who feels she has to apologise for being female before discussing sexual violence against women at a women's festival is unlikely to be up to commissioning an intelligent play about gender ideology. |
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2,477 posts
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Post by zahidf on Aug 26, 2022 17:13:27 GMT
Theatres are allowed to put on whatever new play they want. Having this with a trans perspective is perfectly reasonable.
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Post by oxfordsimon on Aug 26, 2022 17:19:08 GMT
Theatres are allowed to put on whatever new play they want. Having this with a trans perspective is perfectly reasonable. It is also perfectly reasonable for others to challenge and question their decision. Too often those who don't subscribe to the current gender ideology face attempts to silence their voices. |
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Post by kathryn on Aug 26, 2022 18:40:23 GMT
Given that, under the previous ‘watchful waiting’ model of care for gender dysphoria, 80% of children would desist from trans identification and have their gender dysphoria naturally resolve around puberty - usually going on to be same-sex attracted in adulthood, this study actually shows that social transition for children with gender dysphoria is not a good approach. It causes more young people to go on to serious medical interventions (puberty blockers, hormones, surgery) with really significant side effects and life-long medical requirements. It only sounds like a good thing to people who don’t know very much about the subject, or whose goal is to increase the number of trans people regardless of the negative health consequences for the young people involved. Anyway, it’s kind of irrelevant to whether the play is any good. |
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4,153 posts
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Post by kathryn on Aug 26, 2022 18:47:20 GMT
Please try to get your info from more outlets than Pink News (or The Guardian, which these days feels like its brother paper). Those of us who grew up in the Bowie, Glam Rock, New Romantic and all the rest of it era think what is going on now regarding the conception of gender roles, 'fluidity' and sex is far more conservative than our era where a girl who liked cars and dinosaurs or a boy who liked dolls and dancing weren't told they were in the 'wrong body' and needed medically 'fixing'. The Tavistock is closing, and not for the reasons claimed in Pink News. Two of the three people I know who surgically transitioned regretted it. Right now I know several families including a relative where the teenagers are caught up in this trend. It's not something to be flippant about. If someone chooses to commit to this course of surgery and life when they're a mature adult then so be it, but we are talking teenagers here, a show about a teenage girl and aimed at teenagers. Oh gosh - many apologies - here's my info from the National Library of Medicine. pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35918512/I literally just listened to a podcast this morning that set out all the reasons why that is a genuinely terrible piece of research. You might want to read the Response to it - by a group of gender clinicians who have the same ideological position as the authors - ‘Science and Public Health as a Tool for Social Justice Requires Methodological Rigor: A Response to Turban et al. “Sex Assigned at Birth Ratio Among Transgender and Gender Diverse Adolescents in the United States” It appears as a comment at the end of the article on the journal’s website: publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/doi/10.1542/peds.2022-056567/188709/Sex-Assigned-at-Birth-Ratio-Among-Transgender-and?autologincheck=redirected?nfToken=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 |
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Post by zahidf on Aug 26, 2022 19:00:35 GMT
Theatres are allowed to put on whatever new play they want. Having this with a trans perspective is perfectly reasonable. It is also perfectly reasonable for others to challenge and question their decision. Too often those who don't subscribe to the current gender ideology face attempts to silence their voices. It all seems very toxic. Its a private theatre, they can put on what they want as long as they aren't breaking any laws. People can say they won't go to watch it because of whatever reason, but saying they shouldn't put it on at all seems wrong. |
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Post by kathryn on Aug 26, 2022 19:13:51 GMT
They can put on whatever they want, indeed.
And people can criticise them for it.
Is it really any different than criticising a theatre for programming too many plays by straight white men? Or for not having a diverse enough cast? Or for not having cast and creatives of the ‘right’ demographic for the subject matter of the play?
All of which regularly happens on this board, and is just as motivated by ideological beliefs about what theatre *should* do as part of society.
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Post by zahidf on Aug 26, 2022 19:32:11 GMT
They can put on whatever they want, indeed. And people can criticise them for it. Is it really any different than criticising a theatre for programming too many plays by straight white men? Or for not having a diverse enough cast? Or for not having cast and creatives of the ‘right’ demographic for the subject matter of the play? All of which regularly happens on this board, and is just as motivated by ideological beliefs about what theatre *should* do as part of society. Dunno, the bringing up of Tavistock when it's not really relevant to the production Seems odd to me. It seems like the first few shows has been a success commercially. They've been open about it being a trans lead role. I dont think it's supposed to be a historically accurate show. The funniest is Dan Hodges moaning about the casting and a million Twitter users reminding him his mother played King Lear on stage for months. |
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Post by oxfordsimon on Aug 26, 2022 20:18:12 GMT
It is also perfectly reasonable for others to challenge and question their decision. Too often those who don't subscribe to the current gender ideology face attempts to silence their voices. It all seems very toxic. Its a private theatre, they can put on what they want as long as they aren't breaking any laws. People can say they won't go to watch it because of whatever reason, but saying they shouldn't put it on at all seems wrong. I am not aware of anyone arguing that the play shouldn't be staged. But there are plenty of voices arguing that seeking to impose a modern gender construct on an important female historical figure is problematic. As well as raising other genuine concerns. These are important issues and should not be dismissed. Which is what the Globe has sought to do. |
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Post by peggs on Aug 26, 2022 21:20:48 GMT
Went to the first preview of I, Joan last night. Largely full house and a noticeably younger audience. Thought it was terrific, some tightening needed as to be expected in a first performance (just under 3 hours currently, that can definitely be trimmed) and a really interesting evening. There is some mild breaking of the fourth wall, as a warning if you are allergic to that sort thing. Me too drmaplewood I was there with a non binary friend and I can't put into words what it meant to them to see some sort of articulation of something of their experience. |
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Post by crowblack on Aug 26, 2022 22:01:03 GMT
Dunno, the bringing up of Tavistock when it's not really relevant to the production Seems odd to me. The Globe's main website page for the play advises interested readers / audiences to "visit organisations such as Gendered Intelligence for resources and more." Gendered Intelligence is a controversial lobby group with a particular focus on young people. If the Globe are going to bring them to the table, then I feel fully justified in bringing the Tavistock into the conversation. As I said before, this play isn't being staged in a vacuum but in 2022 and against a background where soaring numbers of teenage girls - now far outnumbering boys - are trying to identify out of being women and girls, going to gender clinics, binding their breasts, seeking and having mastectomies etc.. |
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Post by zahidf on Aug 27, 2022 0:27:39 GMT
Dunno, the bringing up of Tavistock when it's not really relevant to the production Seems odd to me. The Globe's main website page for the play advises interested readers / audiences to "visit organisations such as Gendered Intelligence for resources and more." Gendered Intelligence is a controversial lobby group with a particular focus on young people. If the Globe are going to bring them to the table, then I feel fully justified in bringing the Tavistock into the conversation. As I said before, this play isn't being staged in a vacuum but in 2022 and against a background where soaring numbers of teenage girls - now far outnumbering boys - are trying to identify out of being women and girls, going to gender clinics, binding their breasts, seeking and having mastectomies etc.. That doesn't seem relevant to the play in question |
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Post by oxfordsimon on Aug 27, 2022 0:56:39 GMT
The Globe, by referring patrons to a particular lobby group, have made it relevant.
They have taken a very clear position on a very contentious issue.
It is right that they are subject to scrutiny and questioning. And that does mean that the closure of the Tavistock Clinic is very much a relevant part of that debate.
The Globe is there to put on great theatre.
The Globe is not qualified to weigh in on what is a complex and emotive area of healthcare.
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Post by alessia on Aug 27, 2022 7:12:23 GMT
The Globe's main website page for the play advises interested readers / audiences to "visit organisations such as Gendered Intelligence for resources and more." Gendered Intelligence is a controversial lobby group with a particular focus on young people. If the Globe are going to bring them to the table, then I feel fully justified in bringing the Tavistock into the conversation. As I said before, this play isn't being staged in a vacuum but in 2022 and against a background where soaring numbers of teenage girls - now far outnumbering boys - are trying to identify out of being women and girls, going to gender clinics, binding their breasts, seeking and having mastectomies etc.. That doesn't seem relevant to the play in question It does seem very relevant to the play in question. The author (funny enough, a trans man-) has taken a very famous historical figure, who was female and persecuted for being such, and changing her to non binary (a concept which to me is the most utterly regressive - masquerading as progressive- that has come out in the last 10 years or so). It is very much relevant to what is currently happening in society. I'm curious to see what the reviews will be like...I expect a gushing one from the Guardian at least. |
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