Current state of West End musicals

[zahidf]

I think its a mix of things: Doubtfire seems to be a hit, so new musicals are getting an audience. And 2:22 Ghost story is a new long runner. Pillowman seems to be selling well as well

I think the main issues the theatre itself can control are:

1. Price of tickets
2. Casting. Not just famous people of course, but a famous person who can act, or someone like Sheridan Smith say
3. Good word of mouth, either critical or from the audience

In this sense, maybe more producers should look at putting it on somewhere else before it gets to the West End? that way you can have some good reviews ready for pushing onto people

[cmj]

I definitely have reduced my theatre visits. This is mainly due to the unreliability of the trains, can't remember the last time I returned home after a theatre visit and a train hasn't been delayed or more often cancelled completely. With strikes I am reluctant to book anything too much in advance and then with all the travel hassle, do I want to risk not enjoying a new production when I know i will enjoy older shows. All in all, by far fewer theatre trips.

[Someone in a tree]

If we had interesting shows that didn't break the bank then ...

[SuttonPeron]

As someone who loves to travel to London to see shows, but needs to book flights, hotel, trains... My main issue with the West End is its prices. I can´t rely on rush tickets/lotteries and need to book in advance. Not only it´s become incredibly expensive to stay in London, but also the ticket prices are atrocious and don´t always represent the quality of the productions. And then, I find there are less and less "intermediate" seats. It´s either the Premium seats at more than 120, the regular Stalls and DC at 65-100, or the cheaper seats with limited view in the nosebleed (usually 25 and then jump to 39,5). Les Mis is the biggest example of this.

[partytentdown]

The death of groups/schools bookings is a big factor with many shows.
Teachers just don't have the time to deal with the huge admin that organising a school trip takes these days. I also read that it now costs something like 90% more for European school groups to get to the UK than it did a decade ago thanks to the extra visa/passport costs (thanks Brexit). Other non school groups just don't exist in the same way they used to - there are far fewer local companies organising coach trips to the West End and many companies no longer have the budget to subsidize staff outings in the way they used to.

So this all adds up to hundreds of empty seats per week that would have been filled by group bookers a few years ago, often at the early/mid week shows that need the most help.

[alece10]

Living in London I had no idea about hotel prices but was talking to a couple from Manchester whilst on holiday the other day and they told me they regularly come to London on visits and usually stay at the Premier Inn at King's Cross. They told me they usually pay between £180 and £200 a night there. I was shocked as I thought it was abput £70 a night.
Had no idea how expensive the cheaper hotels were.

[ptwest]

We are in an era where both word of mouth on social media and brand recognition are extremely powerful. This makes it harder for producers to take risks with material - hence all the film adaptations and jukebox musicals. A lot of these are very entertaining but it’s not a fertile ground for anything a bit more risky. Occasionally something breaks through, for example on paper Hamilton sounds like a terrible idea, but I would imagine that familiarity is an extremely powerful marketing tool these days.

[richey]

Jun 30, 2023 14:22:35 GMT alece10 said:

Living in London I had no idea about hotel prices but was talking to a couple from Manchester whilst on holiday the other day and they told me they regularly come to London on visits and usually stay at the Premier Inn at King's Cross. They told me they usually pay between £180 and £200 a night there. I was shocked as I thought it was abput £70 a night.
Had no idea how expensive the cheaper hotels were.

Yes. I'm coming down from Manchester in a few weeks. I'd only planned on staying the Sunday and Monday nights but thanks to the train strikes I've had to add an extra Saturday night which potentially doubled the whole cost of the weekend. On top of that, the coach companies have more than doubled their prices that weekend as a result of the demand from people not being able to use the trains.
When I first started coming back to London after covid I was lucky enough to snap up a room in the Premier Inn opposite the Coliseum for £30. Now I'm looking at five or six times that amount for a hotel much further out.

[shownut]

My husband and I would try to see EVERYTHING and have missed very few major musicals in the West End or on Broadway in the past 25 years.

But, after Covid, this has all but stopped and for a number of reasons:

1) Audiences are more unpredictable than ever and rudeness/entitlement is off the charts. We are tired of the mobile phones, singing along, eating, talking and immediate, screaming ovations for every performance 'just because'. 

2) Ticket prices are frankly a rip-off. Prices have gone up while the value of the theatregoing experience has gone down. 

3) The quality of current writing/composing is, more often than not, pitiful.  It used to be a rare occasion when we came across a 'stinker'. This now seems to happen with 4 out of every 5 shows we see. 

We now take in more dance and opera (which isn't cheap either but the production quality is more dependable so usually worth it) and we see a fair amount of fringe or productions at arts colleges (ArtsEd and Royal Academy are must sees). Audiences in those spaces tend to be more mindful and the price more than matches the value of the experience.

[shownut]

Jun 30, 2023 14:38:56 GMT ptwest said:

We are in an era where both word of mouth on social media and brand recognition are extremely powerful. This makes it harder for producers to take risks with material - hence all the film adaptations and jukebox musicals. A lot of these are very entertaining but it’s not a fertile ground for anything a bit more risky. Occasionally something breaks through, for example on paper Hamilton sounds like a terrible idea, but I would imagine that familiarity is an extremely powerful marketing tool these days.

That is the strange thing. Most film adaptations and jukebox musicals actually become failures. Very few of them make their money back.

[mkb]

Jun 30, 2023 11:33:35 GMT theatrefan62 said:

[... But for me the cinema isn't a particularly enjoyable experience anymore. Especially as it costs so much more these days so its cheaper to watch at home too.

It has to be a film I really can't wait a couple of months to see, which doesn't happen very often. You can stream most films within a few months. It's a much nicer experience to get friends or family round and watch in comfort of own home.

What a shame you seem to have lost the joy of going to the movies. I think much depends on the quality of your local cinemas. I am very lucky here.

I have a pretty good THX sound system and a 65-inch telly, so my home viewing of UHD and upscaled Blu-ray discs is close to as good as it gets. I can crank it up loud so that the two huge sub-woofers shake the room and I sit only a couple of metres away so it's quite the cinematic experience, yet, post Covid, I am not watching much at home, as the cinema experience is still so much better for me.

My local Odeon lets me watch unlimited films for which I paid £120/year in their January offer (and that includes West End). The screens at my local are all very large and curved and all but two have a scope (2.35) ratio (so no letter-boxing on those).

The seats are all electric recliners, in a heavily raked (i.e. so called stadium) auditoria with walls between each row of seats. Audiences are nearly always impeccably behaved and any sound does not carry between rows.

Movies are played with the lights very low until the very end, and quite a few people stay through the credits. The staff are friendly, and the parking is free.

I do however hate the ads and especially the spoiler-ridden trailers, but I have found I can tune out of those and use that time to catch up on emails, news and social media.

I miss the showmanship and the velvet curtains of old, but going to the cinema can still be good and affordable if you're lucky enough to have a good one nearby.

[theatrefan62]

Jun 30, 2023 15:44:22 GMT mkb said:

Jun 30, 2023 11:33:35 GMT theatrefan62 said:

[... But for me the cinema isn't a particularly enjoyable experience anymore. Especially as it costs so much more these days so its cheaper to watch at home too.

It has to be a film I really can't wait a couple of months to see, which doesn't happen very often. You can stream most films within a few months. It's a much nicer experience to get friends or family round and watch in comfort of own home.

What a shame you seem to have lost the joy of going to the movies. I think much depends on the quality of your local cinemas. I am very lucky here.

I have a pretty good THX sound system and a 65-inch telly, so my home viewing of UHD and upscaled Blu-ray discs is close to as good as it gets. I can crank it up loud so that the two huge sub-woofers shake the room and I sit only a couple of metres away so it's quite the cinematic experience, yet, post Covid, I am not watching much at home, as the cinema experience is still so much better for me.

My local Odeon lets me watch unlimited films for which I paid £120/year in their January offer (and that includes West End). The screens at my local are all very large and curved and all but two have a scope (2.35) ratio (so no letter-boxing on those).

The seats are all electric recliners, in a heavily raked (i.e. so called stadium) auditoria with walls between each row of seats. Audiences are nearly always impeccably behaved and any sound does not carry between rows.

Movies are played with the lights very low until the very end, and quite a few people stay through the credits. The staff are friendly, and the parking is free.

I do however hate the ads and especially the spoiler-ridden trailers, but I have found I can tune out of those and use that time to catch up on emails, news and social media.

I miss the showmanship and the velvet curtains of old, but going to the cinema can still be good and affordable if you're lucky enough to have a good one nearby.

I guess it depends how much you love the movies or cinema experience. I love films but I have never ever seen a movie in the cinema that was so much better 'on the big screen' rather than on a wide-screen at home. A good movie is a good movie to me whichever screen its on.

It's a mix of peoples behaviour, the food smells/dropped, and the expense. Buying the dvd or going through streaming is so much cheaper, more comfortable and for me better value.

Obviously live theatre is harder to replace. But cinema is something I'm OK with just watching at home.

[jay78uk]

I’m sad to see Aspects closing but not surprised given casting and marketing decisions. Placing so much emphasis on Ball gave the whole production limited appeal to those who saw it first time round, with next to no effort to appeal to younger theatre goers.

The show was already (unfairly) hamstrung being composed by an old man who is increasingly out of favour. Combining this with retro marketing harking back to 80s was never going to work.

Ditto Cinderella- if ALW had stuck with composition and given others free rein to drive front the concept I suspect it would still be doing business. It had a good score but failed under the questionable 80s production and orchestrations.

[viserys]

Foreigner here and for me it's definitely cost + quality.

The cost: As others have mentioned, hotel prices are through the roof. I usually pay around £70-80 per night at the Hub by Premier Inn in King's Cross, but now it's around the £200 mark, which I just can't justify for their tiny shoebox rooms. Regular Premier Inns and Travelodges are even more expensive. I had planned a longer trip in November, but have already shaved two nights off that one and opted for a Premier Inn fairly far out in the Docklands. I am definitely at a stage where I'm ready to cut down on my London trips, both to make them shorter and come over less.

Secondly, quality. During my last two trips I mainly saw shows in little shoebox theatres - Tammy Faye at the Almeida, Band's Visit at the Donmar, Allegiance and From Here to Eternity at Charing Cross and Eugenius at the Turbine. I actually loved them all, but it feels like the mix is off - "musicals" ALSO mean showbiz to me - big sets, a big cast, dance numbers and so on. I am just back from New York, where I decided to see (apart from the shows I had travelled for) Some Like It Hot and New York, New York, simply because I felt so starved for big entertainment. Sure, it's getting better now and I look forward to three big shows next month (Aspects, Groundhog Day and Crazy for you), but it may take time for people to re-discover the offerings.

I also tend to agree on the quality of new writing, whether it's Broadway imports or home-grown stuff, but I'm tired of the noisy pop music being used so often these days, and the clunky lyrics. Most of the songs in "New York New York" are cribbed from the Kander/Ebb back catalogue and hearing those older songs now was such a big difference in lyric quality, it's quite depressing.

Then of course there's Brexit: Less than half the adult German population has a passport, because we can travel within the EU and a few other countries on ID cards, so that's a big group suddenly not being able to travel to the UK anymore/wouldn't bother getting an expensive passport just for the UK. This also includes school groups, where every pupil needs a passport now and children from many countries are required to get a very pricey visa on top of the passport - needless to say that teachers and parents rather choose another country, often Ireland for the English-language angle. I'm sure it's not just Germany either; there are probably many other European countries that can't use their ID Cards for traveling to the UK anymore and all of these are missing bums on seats.

[David J]

I feel local theatre, where I live in centre-ish Hampshire is also feeling the affects badly

The Mayflower Theatre is the place to go for the big touring shows certainly, but there's barely anything of interest, to me, at the mid-sized and smaller venues.

I'm talking places like Salisbury Playhouse, Winchester Theatre Royal, the Southampton MAST Theatre (whats left of the insolvent Nuffield Theatre), New Theatre Royal Portsmouth, Basingstoke Haymarket, Lighthouse in Poole. Where a decade ago they'd be producing revivals or bringing in touring companies like English Touring Theatre, Northern Broadsides and Headlong expanding the repertoire of plays you could see

Nowadays the touring companies are sticking to a few theatres closer to home and the theatres are nowadays are sticking to very safe choices to make revenue. Tribute band nights, comedians, kids shows, screenings etc. Salisbury Playhouse was a great venue to see a season of plays. This autumn they've only got Jeeves and Wooster and the panto.

And to be fair it was moving that way before Covid but nowadays if you want to see something interesting or a revival of a play you've never seen before, London is your best bet. Bath Theatre Royal would be my next choice, though I'm yet to try anything they're currently putting on in the studio because the prices are too high for me, then Chichester and the Watermill Theatre (though their adaptation of The Suspicions of Mr Whicher was underwhelming)

Happily I can see there's touring productions of this Henry I and Faith Healer coming to Winchester. Still, not what local theatre used to be

[fiyero]

Jun 30, 2023 11:21:29 GMT @stevea said:

As a long-time theatergoer in both London and NYC, I find myself post-pandemic as a more discerning arts consumer, primarily because of the rising ticket prices. I think the pandemic changed many people's habits in a lot of ways that some producers and the leadership of arts organizations haven't fully incorporated into their offerings.

I still attend a lot of shows, but I'm less likely to see something it if wasn't strongly reviewed, has decent word of mouth, or includes cast members or creative team members whom I've found generally are worth supporting. In addition, I'm a bit more choosy on subject matter.

One other more recent influence on my attendance has been the seeming rise in audience behavior that I find less than desirable. Of course this is very subjective, but I don't want to pay top dollar for a musical only to have audience members singing or dancing along during the performance. Many of the musicals drawing on pop tunes seem to either encourage or enable such behavior. Curtain calls are an exception and I'm fine with that.

I was discussing this with a friend. Her thoughts are That she agrees about not attending due to a poor audience - previously she’d think nothing of doing a 6-8 show week of her fav (drifters) but she chooses not to do that with Aint too proud because Friday and Saturdays simply have to be avoided as she has had bad experiences with a lot of the audience singing along and so now she simply won’t go those nights. We know typically those nights sell better anyway but for her who would never have previously avoided going at a weekend she does now! It’s not until you have a perfect audience on a Tuesday that you realise how much your experience was ruined the previous Saturday with constantly having to turn round, shush people etc.

[Deleted]

It will be interesting to see what happens with audience behavior in the future if we continue to get more musicals that incorporate pop or rock hits.

People pick up cues on how to behave from the environment. I don't think it is crazy to think we may get more concert-like behavior from musical audiences if the staging of the show in any way mimics a concert-like atmosphere or the songlist mirrors what you may find at a concert.

How immersive productions influence audience behavior also will be worth watching. I think of the current production of Here Lies Love on Broadway where some people in the standing area are encouraged to dance alongside the actors in some moments.

And of course, some may be attracted to attend musicals if the audience environment is more "freeflowing" while it may lead to a decreased attendance from others.

Interesting times indeed.

[christya]

For me, I've stopped booking as many shows because of the train strikes. Yes, I can fly down to Heathrow but the strikes also affect getting into central London from there, and it was a nightmare last time I tried it. I'm tired of having my plans at the mercy of strike dates, and buying a ticket for something not knowing whether I'll even be able to get there.

The hotel prices aren't helping. There's no way in this world that I'm paying £160 a night for a Premier Inn, and I used to be able to get the Radisson for a reasonable price ahead of time, but that's less common now (also, they changed their loyalty scheme, it's now useless, and I may be sulking). If I don't stay overnight, that limits me to a matinee show - and one show per trip, when previously I'd manage three.

[musicalfloozie]

For me it's mainly costs. Travelling via train with limited advanced fares, expensive hotels (picking sensibly as sole female traveller) and spending money my last show weekend in London cost me around £600. Lots of the shows seem to head out on tour at some point so I've decided not to do a London weekend again and just drive down for the 1 off shows I know I won't be able to see elsewhere.

[stevej678]

Jun 30, 2023 14:22:35 GMT alece10 said:

Living in London I had no idea about hotel prices but was talking to a couple from Manchester whilst on holiday the other day and they told me they regularly come to London on visits and usually stay at the Premier Inn at King's Cross. They told me they usually pay between £180 and £200 a night there. I was shocked as I thought it was abput £70 a night.
Had no idea how expensive the cheaper hotels were.

I stay at that Hub all the time and have never paid £180 to spend the night there. I've got two nights booked there in December for £110 in total. There's definitely sometimes bargains to be had at certain Hub hotels if booked well in advance.

[sukhavati]

Jun 30, 2023 14:22:35 GMT alece10 said:

Living in London I had no idea about hotel prices but was talking to a couple from Manchester whilst on holiday the other day and they told me they regularly come to London on visits and usually stay at the Premier Inn at King's Cross. They told me they usually pay between £180 and £200 a night there. I was shocked as I thought it was abput £70 a night.
Had no idea how expensive the cheaper hotels were.

Sounds about right. I was paying around £160 a night pre-covid to stay in a chain hotel in Kensington, using travel reward points. And that's cheap in central London. If I'm in town for a week, I'm looking at about £1500 for lodging, food, and topping up my Oyster card. I can easily spend another £400 on show tickets, and quite frankly, that's money I don't have to spend these days. I miss being there, but it would take a really extraordinary production starring someone I LOVE to get me into town under current circumstances.

[sam22]

Jun 30, 2023 13:07:23 GMT SuttonPeron said:

As someone who loves to travel to London to see shows, but needs to book flights, hotel, trains... My main issue with the West End is its prices. I can´t rely on rush tickets/lotteries and need to book in advance. Not only it´s become incredibly expensive to stay in London, but also the ticket prices are atrocious and don´t always represent the quality of the productions. And then, I find there are less and less "intermediate" seats. It´s either the Premium seats at more than 120, the regular Stalls and DC at 65-100, or the cheaper seats with limited view in the nosebleed (usually 25 and then jump to 39,5). Les Mis is the biggest example of this.

Yes agree with you. We try and go as much as we can and have a good disposal income but the prices are going up and up.

We now usually try and stay over so we can see two shows Sat and one Sunday as there isn't a late enough train back to see an evening show Sat if not and it is cheaper to do it like that rather than go down for three different day trips.

To get a reasonable view at many shows now is easily £70 each, our trains are the same price, and the last two times we have been down we stayed at the Premier Inn Hub for £170 and then the Travelodge for £200. Extortionate!

Adding food and programmes etc in as well, and you do have to then pause and think that's the price of a holiday!

[lichtie]

One thing that has changed since the pandemic is that weekend rates for hotels (and trains) are now often well above week days, especially early in the week. There are still places that can be found easily for just above £100 if you're willing to travel a bit - on a visit next week I'm near Seven Sisters tube, later in the month out by Stratford, but both have adequately fast links back into the centre to make it worth the time (when I'm in London once I leave the hotel in the morning I don't return until nighttime anyway, so distance is less of an issue than if I was going back and forward a lot).

Cost of tickets is definitely starting to become an issue. Though I don't mind the head waggling to see round pillars, those seats seem about double the price they were five years ago in most of the West End. The only saving grace I have is that I can get cheaper tickets now from those places that set their old-age concessions to start at 60 rather than 65. Which also makes the train tickets slightly more bearable too. I had thought I would cut back after the pandemic (to save money mainly) but I don't seem to have - just spend more time working out which are the dates that have the cheapest travel and accomodation before looking at the theatre tickets.

[rosscoe]

I try to come from Australia every couple of years. The price this time around is insane. The hotel prices have gone through the roof, I usually stay at Hilton branded hotels, but prices have jumped for the cheapest centrally located Hilton now costs nearly 3,000 pounds for seven days ( 5,500 Australian Dollars ). I only really use days seats and lottery to keep the prices down, but again that soon adds up.

My last trip in November 2021, 12Days , 14 shows, came in at just under 10,000 Australia Dollars.

This year instead I have an 11 night cruise from Tormso Norway to Iceland coming in at 1,500 AUD including Drinks, Wi-Fi, Specialty Dining, and one shore excursion.

What also changed my mind, apart from Aspects , A Little Life, I was hard pressed to find something that made the trek worth it.

Last trip, this was the shows.

Six The Musical
The prince of Egypt
&juliet
Back to the Future
Ocean at the end of the lane
Cabaret
The shark is broken
The Addams Family
Cinderella
Dear Evan Hanson
The Mirror and the light
Pride and prejudice ( sort of )

[frankubelik]

It's the ticket prices which are becoming prohibitive. As an ex-Theatre worker, I was fortunate enough not to pay for tickets in over twenty years, so the fact that I now do feels as if I'm at least giving something "back". I try and see most things and book way in advance for previews when prices can be a little cheaper but I'm old now and need to be close to the action and that comes at a cost! When you add travel, food and drink (for two) an "evening out" does become very expensive indeed. I would have booked for Aspects but found the prices prohibitive. Even now with the closing notice posted, Monday evening's Stalls A6 is still £55 (and that's without Ball!) for a seat which offers a restricted view due to the high stage. As for the "premium seats" which is a very modern phenomenon - pure rip-off! I feel producers have become greedy and honestly only have themselves to blame if shows "fail". So many incentives could be brought in to ensure full houses (loyalty schemes for those who like repeated viewings, I wonder if they still "paper" to nurses and cabbies, reaching out to other venues - most of whom now send a follow up survey after seeing a show - to access databases for email offers etc....) I wonder how CfY will fare in this market? I saw it at Chichester so won't have to bother in London. It is a sad state of affairs.