Current state of West End musicals

[max]

Jul 1, 2023 6:58:29 GMT rosscoe said:

I try to come from Australia every couple of years. The price this time around is insane. The hotel prices have gone through the roof, I usually stay at Hilton branded hotels, but prices have jumped for the cheapest centrally located Hilton now costs nearly 3,000 pounds for seven days ( 5,500 Australian Dollars ). I only really use days seats and lottery to keep the prices down, but again that soon adds up.

My last trip in November 2021, 12Days , 14 shows, came in at just under 10,000 Australia Dollars.

This year instead I have an 11 night cruise from Tormso Norway to Iceland coming in at 1,500 AUD including Drinks, Wi-Fi, Specialty Dining, and one shore excursion.

What also changed my mind, apart from Aspects , A Little Life, I was hard pressed to find something that made the trek worth it.

Last trip, this was the shows.

Six The Musical
The prince of Egypt
&juliet
Back to the Future
Ocean at the end of the lane
Cabaret
The shark is broken
The Addams Family
Cinderella
Dear Evan Hanson
The Mirror and the light
Pride and prejudice ( sort of )

'A Little Life' will be shown in cinemas (presumably internationally) from Sept 28th.
So you may not have missed out on it.

That's another factor. Even if it doesn't transpire, these days there's the background thought that by not shelling out lots of money you may get to see it anyway

[max]

Feels like West End needs a summit meeting of producers/Theatre owners. Start with pricing. What's the point of high prices drastically slashed later for those in the know? Bad reputation is set for more occasional audiences. Plus humiliation for producers and stars as they publicly prove their value is way lower than first advertised.
The game's up.

[Rory]

The prices are going to wreck the West End if it doesn't get a grip.

Some people will say "it's a business, why shouldn't they make money" etc but it's ruining the ecology, killing the golden calf.

I know first hand so many seasoned theatregoers who simply can't afford to come to the West End now. And that annoys me intensely. It's elitist and it's greedy.

The hotels have definitely become more expensive. I used to always stay in the Premier Inn Hubs too but my recent experience is that these have now gone up to £170 a night so I haven't used them on my last two visits.

I have two teenagers and on looking at half decent seats for Stranger Things for 4 of us and honestly, you'd get a week in Spain for the cost of flying to London and staying in a hotel for one night to see it. So I won't bother.

[max]

Jul 1, 2023 7:28:10 GMT Rory said:

The prices are going to wreck the West End if it doesn't get a grip.

Some people will say "it's a business, why shouldn't they make money" etc but it's ruining the ecology, killing the golden calf.

I know first hand so many seasoned theatregoers who simply can't afford to come to the West End now. And that annoys me intensely. It's elitist and it's greedy.

The hotels have definitely become more expensive. I used to always stay in the Premier Inn Hubs too but my recent experience is that these have now gone up to £170 a night so I haven't used them on my last two visits.

I have two teenagers and on looking at half decent seats for Stranger Things for 4 of us and honestly, you'd get a week in Spain for the cost of flying to London and staying in a hotel for one night to see it. So I won't bother.

SOLT could (with the collaboration of producers) easily number crunch the total box office take of a show that closed earlier than hoped.  What was the total take?  How many attended (including papered).  What was the actual mean average ticket price per person?

Then, ask the question.  If we'd advertised at these prices from the beginning would more people have come?

The extrapolation then is - would those prices have supported the show to run longer, and at least make its money back?

Maybe not.  All I know is that the headline prices are a terrible advertising banner that suggests theatre is for the elite.  Or indeed, so expensive that you earn the right as audience to have a private party in the auditorium, run to your own rules.  Both are bad outcomes for the future of musicals.

In the nicest possible way SOLT should be aiming to put Today TIX out of business by getting real from the start on pricing.

[Jon]

Jul 1, 2023 7:15:58 GMT max said:

Feels like West End needs a summit meeting of producers/Theatre owners. Start with pricing. What's the point of high prices drastically slashed later for those in the know? Bad reputation is set for more occasional audiences. Plus humiliation for producers and stars as they publicly prove their value is way lower than first advertised.
The game's up.

Theatre is not cheap to make or run and that's the truth. People complain about pricing but yet concerts charge as much if not more as does the opera and no one bats an eyelid.

I love a bargain as much as anyone but we cannot expect shows with lavish sets and production values or stars with big names in them to give us the best seats at the lowest possible price and even in places like the National, they've had to introduce premium pricing because without it, you'd probably see cuts to shows and budgets.

The idea that SOLT should put TodayTix is a terrible one and more immoral than high prices.

[max]

Jul 1, 2023 10:22:30 GMT Jon said:

Jul 1, 2023 7:15:58 GMT max said:

Feels like West End needs a summit meeting of producers/Theatre owners. Start with pricing. What's the point of high prices drastically slashed later for those in the know? Bad reputation is set for more occasional audiences. Plus humiliation for producers and stars as they publicly prove their value is way lower than first advertised.
The game's up.

Theatre is not cheap to make or run and that's the truth. People complain about pricing but yet concerts charge as much if not more as does the opera and no one bats an eyelid.

I love a bargain as much as anyone but we cannot expect shows with lavish sets and production values or stars with big names in them to give us the best seats at the lowest possible price and even in places like the National, they've had to introduce premium pricing because without it, you'd probably see cuts to shows and budgets.

The idea that SOLT should put TodayTix is a terrible one and more immoral than high prices.

I just meant that producers would be better to advertise their own TodayTix level seats up front and factored in, because the high prices they instead advertise are not great for the image of the industry - suggesting to many that it's 'not for them'.  In fact, a great number of prices get slashed, but that's only known about by those of us who have our regular online bargain ticket haunts.  I'm standing up for those who don't have that intel because it's not their regular habit.  Nothing immoral about that (by 'put them out of business' I just meant replicate the prices officially and visibly up front).

There is a calculation of course that theatre does actually need a good chunk of people to be unaware of bargain deals, and stump up the big cash.  Yet it feels captive tourists who were good for that are dwindling.  As for the domestic market - is it better to build an audience habit, or get the one-off hit from someone who pays over the odds.  Truth is - for the struggling show, the one off hit is what they need asap; for the good of the industry it's the longer game for me.

[mkb]

One easy political solution would be for the government to bring London into line with other major European cities and have post 11pm trains to the rest of the country every night.

The last Saturday night services up the West Coast Mainline are shockingly early.

The policy of allowing Network Rail to take full possession every night for what increasingly seems to be restorative work rather than preventative maintenance, needs to be examined. How do other countries manage?

[Jon]

Jul 1, 2023 11:05:04 GMT mkb said:

One easy political solution would be for the government to bring London into line with other major European cities and have post 11pm trains to the rest of the country every night.

The last Saturday night services up the West Coast Mainline are shockingly early.

The policy of allowing Network Rail to take full possession every night for what increasingly seems to be restorative work rather than preventative maintenance, needs to be examined. How do other countries manage?

Good luck getting the rail unions to agree to that!! Plus late night is the only realistic time aside from weekends to do engineering works. To have less work or even none is potentially dangerous.

[max]

Jul 1, 2023 11:07:17 GMT Jon said:

Jul 1, 2023 11:05:04 GMT mkb said:

One easy political solution would be for the government to bring London into line with other major European cities and have post 11pm trains to the rest of the country every night.

The last Saturday night services up the West Coast Mainline are shockingly early.

The policy of allowing Network Rail to take full possession every night for what increasingly seems to be restorative work rather than preventative maintenance, needs to be examined. How do other countries manage?

Good luck getting the rail unions to agree to that!! Plus late night is the only realistic time aside from weekends to do engineering works. To have less work or even none is potentially dangerous.

Within the Greater London area the night tube at weekends is a benefit to entertainment and hospitality.  It was a useful breakthrough when that was agreed.

[Someone in a tree]

Jul 1, 2023 11:05:04 GMT mkb said:

One easy political solution would be for the government to bring London into line with other major European cities and have post 11pm trains to the rest of the country every night.

The last Saturday night services up the West Coast Mainline are shockingly early.

The policy of allowing Network Rail to take full possession every night for what increasingly seems to be restorative work rather than preventative maintenance, needs to be examined. How do other countries manage?

Good point.

Regarding start times ...ENO used to have early start performances (5 pm ish) so folk could comfortably get a late train home on a Saturday.

Why do one act performances start so late?
Monday, 8pm for strange loop was my beef this week.grrr

[BVM]

So according to SOLT gross box-office revenue in 2022 was £892 million (£790 million, adjusted for inflation) and in 2019 was £799 million. (The two full years pre and post pandemic). Much the same.

Of course as the factors discussed in this thread really bite, figures for 2023 may come down, though my hunch is not by much.

At a gross level the west end is doing fine. I think the conversation is more about its changing landscape, changing audiences and changing demographics. (For me personally, my taste, what I want from a musical the West End has been in gradual decline for 20 odd years - but that clearly isn’t the feeling at population level).

Is there less doing well of the type of musical a theatre fan forum may want? Quite possibly. Is there less for the GBP?! Don’t think so.

I do also think (no hard evidence, based on casual observation) that the gap between musicals that take off and take millions and the ones that really don’t seems to be widening. Most of what I like falls into latter camp. So yes, to me West End musicals are less and less exciting.

[max]

Jul 1, 2023 13:10:06 GMT BVM said:

So according to SOLT gross box-office revenue in 2022 was £892 million (£790 million, adjusted for inflation) and in 2019 was £799 million. (The two full years pre and post pandemic). Much the same.

Of course as the factors discussed in this thread really bite, figures for 2023 may come down, though my hunch is not by much.

At a gross level the west end is doing fine. I think the conversation is more about its changing landscape, changing audiences and changing demographics. (For me personally, my taste, what I want from a musical the West End has been in gradual decline for 20 odd years - but that clearly isn’t the feeling at population level).

Is there less doing well of the type of musical a theatre fan forum may want? Quite possibly. Is there less for the GBP?! Don’t think so.

I do also think (no hard evidence, based on casual observation) that the gap between musicals that take off and take millions and the ones that really don’t seems to be widening. Most of what I like falls into latter camp. So yes, to me West End musicals are less and less exciting.

I think there's a lot in this.  Some shows do seem to be thriving that are high concept, often involve a sense of oneness with the audience (i.e. the audience feel they're making the show), and are knowingly self-aware of their relationship with their material.  'Six', 'Heathers', 'Operation Mincemeat' to name three. Quite a bit of the audience sensation is held in the relationship to the stage and company (as much as the story material), and that winning quality can actually benefit from more sparse down-home production values - an apparent lack of taking yourself too seriously - which may be cheaper to produce if the cast isn't huge.  Just because I'm less keen on those, and more keen to see what a writer or writing team want to explore in theme/story via music (without much of a self-referential wink), doesn't mean the West End is objectively failing.. It doesn't mean we'll never get a variety of shows - I should have seen 'Benjamin Button' but didn't get round to it; but fewer of those shows may feature in the West End.

[mkb]

Jul 1, 2023 11:07:17 GMT Jon said:

Jul 1, 2023 11:05:04 GMT mkb said:

One easy political solution would be for the government to bring London into line with other major European cities and have post 11pm trains to the rest of the country every night.

The last Saturday night services up the West Coast Mainline are shockingly early.

The policy of allowing Network Rail to take full possession every night for what increasingly seems to be restorative work rather than preventative maintenance, needs to be examined. How do other countries manage?

Good luck getting the rail unions to agree to that!! Plus late night is the only realistic time aside from weekends to do engineering works. To have less work or even none is potentially dangerous.

I'm not sure the unions are bothered by when engineering takes place and trains, particularly freight, already run through the night in some places.

The question remains as to why the WCML uniquely requires possession from 22:30* every single night and earlier on Saturday.

Why can't services start later on Sunday? If you've ever been on an early Sunday service, you'll know they're about the most lightly used.

How are other lines maintained while still allowing services?

As for longer planned closures, I've long advocated doing this at the least busy times which is Tuesday and Wednesday daytime. These things are usually planned at least a year in advance, so business travellers can work around such closures with plenty of notice.

* - They do actually keep the two slow lines open for the last three trains to Brum, the sleeper and the local services to Northampton, and they used to run a late train to Manchester. I believe there is pathing available for better services to more destinations into the early hours if there were a political will to do it. The fact is that much of the population have been priced out of the London hotel market, and therefore public transport alternatives are needed more than ever.

[shady23]

I find ticket prices increasingly confusing.

Every website/email seems to be offering different prices and "offers".

I have not got the energy to search through them all for the best price. It also makes me reluctant to book anything full price in advance as I know there will be discounts later on.

[musiqualetheater]

Theatre knowledge in the general public is also basically at an all time low, beyond films and tv shows being made into musicals & hollywood castings.

[panda]

The cost of a day/weekend trip to London to see a show is what has put me off since relocating to Manchester from London five years ago. I used to visit once a month and catch a couple of shows each time. There was a time whilst I was working in a few of the West End theatres when I had seen every show that was currently playing there, but I am less and less inspired to go and see much in London currently. I’m tempted to book for Sunset Blvd but with such fond memories of the original production, want to wait to see some production images and reports on this board before I commit to the cost.
Theatre in the provinces seems far cheaper yet the quality of the productions is near identical (Crazy for You, Standing at the Skys Edge, The Wizard of Oz, The King and I) and I’m far more tempted to take a punt on a new regional production at a fraction of the cost. Have just booked a great central stalls seat in row E for Miss Saigon in Sheffield for £25, a ticket for Titanic in the centre Row E dress circle for £22 and have others planned.
The bigger tours such as Hamilton, although more expensive are likely to be a copy of the London show but without the travel cost/hassle. And the days of huge spectacles that were staged in 1990’s London and unlikely to tour with the same production values are not as common nowadays, removing the ‘need’ to book. Many shows in the West End seem less lavish in design, smaller in cast and orchestra and as such not reason enough to part money for other than a few theatre visits over a few days every couple of years.

[max]

Jul 1, 2023 15:58:05 GMT shady23 said:

I find ticket prices increasingly confusing.

Every website/email seems to be offering different prices and "offers".

I have not got the energy to search through them all for the best price. It also makes me reluctant to book anything full price in advance as I know there will be discounts later on.

Yes! This reminds me of when I havered over whether to buy a minidisc player, which one and what price. By the time I'd dithered over competing information they were obsolete and discontinued. 😆. ... which I have to say was a great money saver

[justsaying113]

I wonder when (or, indeed, if) there's a tipping point with a resistance to West End pricing? Maybe certain people will always pay huge sums for something they really want to see (i.e. 'A Little Life') but is that sustainable?

I go to the theatre far less frequently that I used to and I'm also less likely to take a punt. I get the economics of production and the sheer costs of running a show and a venue, but I just can't see how - with mortgage rates still possibly to peak - things are sustainable. Of course, it's not just theatre and the arts. Flight prices are too heading towards a point of were they may become "exclusive", and I belong to an expensive gym and have for years and I've never seen it as quiet as it's been the past couple of months.

I don't feel positive about the immediate future for discretionary spend items and services.

[SuttonPeron]

The one good thing about West End prices I will say, is that the majority of venues seem respect the two cheapest pricing tiers everyday, including weekends. Not that this is much anyways, but in some other countries this doesn´t happen.

[distantcousin]

And yet well known bloggers, mentioning no names, will give something incredibly niche like "A Strange Loop" something like 5 stars...

[distantcousin]

Jul 2, 2023 7:45:51 GMT justsaying113 said:

I wonder when (or, indeed, if) there's a tipping point with a resistance to West End pricing? Maybe certain people will always pay huge sums for something they really want to see (i.e. 'A Little Life') but is that sustainable?

I go to the theatre far less frequently that I used to and I'm also less likely to take a punt. I get the economics of production and the sheer costs of running a show and a venue, but I just can't see how - with mortgage rates still possibly to peak - things are sustainable. Of course, it's not just theatre and the arts. Flight prices are too heading towards a point of were they may become "exclusive", and I belong to an expensive gym and have for years and I've never seen it as quiet as it's been the past couple of months.

I don't feel positive about the immediate future for discretionary spend items and services.

I do think plays are a slightly different market/demographic to plays. Musicals are still overwhelming female majority audiences.

You see a lot more men at plays.

[musiqualetheater]

Jul 2, 2023 9:35:21 GMT distantcousin said:

And yet well known bloggers, mentioning no names, will give something incredibly niche like "A Strange Loop" something like 5 stars...

What do you mean, out of interest?

[mkb]

Jul 2, 2023 10:08:21 GMT kit66 said:

...If the show is a hit it will run long enough for offers to start to appear...

But many productions of late are time-limited runs with a "name" in the cast. If you don't get in early and swallow the initial pricing, if it's a hit, you'll be priced out, Shirley Valentine being a recent case in point.

Aspects could have gone the same way, but did not get the five-star reviews that would have encouraged cash-strapped punters to favour it over something else.

Even with hits that are open-ended, if you wait long enough for offers, it usually means missing the original cast that garnered the initial acclaim.

[theatregoer22]

Even with living in London and being able to take advantage of Rush/lotteries/e.c.t most of the time, I have to be selective about what I see. So that generally means only seeing what really appeals to me, rather than shows that I'd be curious to check out (unless I can get a ticket for under £20, as I have done for Dr Semmelweis). I'm also putting off seeing some shows because either Rush tickets are very hard to get (as with Six) or they only notify lottery winners a few hours before (e.g. Cabaret) in favour of seeing other shows where I can get a dress circle or stalls seat for £40 or less more easily/with enough time to actually get into central London.

[BVM]

Thinking a bit more about this. As I said in my previous post, the West End as a whole is still taking huge amounts of money so people ARE still spending there. But certainly from reading all the comments on here it seems as if a lot of long time fans are spending considerably less. But there are clearly enough people out there keeping some producers very profitable.

Totally agree that there is a dominance of family shows, (very) light entertainment, feel good, tribute, jukebox and film shows. Lots of which do shift their tickets at top dollar - and I guess while some shows can do this, all producers are going to try and charge those prices.

Culturally it is all rather depressing - but who am I to question the taste of the masses?

In terms of pricing - yes theatre is expensive, yes it has gone up. But it's not a theatre problem, it's EVERYTHING. Bills have gone up, food has gone up, travel has gone up, holidays have gone up, mortgages are an absolute crisis for millions (thanks Liz Truss). A coffee and a sandwich in Pret is suddenly over a tenner.

It's grim. Meanwhile (soapbox moment) this dreadful government is driving a bigger and bigger wedge between the rich and the poor with the gap widening every day. Their decimation of public services and 12 years of public sector real terms pay cuts is unforgivable.

So yeah, while theatre prices are prohibitive, so are life prices these days.

Furthermore UK theatre remains much cheaper than Broadway, Austria and Germany (and probably much of Europe - I just happen to go a lot to the latter two). And they have the same costs the rest of us do. We do also have more availability at lower prices than other places (you just have to be on it when booking opens) and some good deals/discounts are out there to be had.

So, frustrating though it is, I don't see prices coming down any time soon....

Back to the musicals themselves, I do think this climate does make producers risk averse and very few people want to take chances in the West End. So the programming remains uninspired and family oriented. At least the subsidised sector are doing some decent stuff.

Bad behaviour is also a massive factor for me. Am so sick of spending 90 quid to be surrounded by talkers/texters/singers/fighting drunks. So yeah - it's sad how much things have changed!

(Sorry for slightly depressing post!!!!)

Edit - very much not just London that's shot up in prices. I live in Brighton so get train back after London shows but look at hotels in regions for tours. Manchester prices have gone up exponentially - ditto Birmingham, Bristol... all the cities that take the biggest tours. Hoping to do a UK mini tour myself for Jesus Christ Superstar purposes (oh and Evita in Leicester) and the prices are eye watering.